Conversation with Veralyn Williams, Executive Producer at NPR
For our first Advice From the Pros, I sat down with Executive Producer Veralyn Williams. Veralyn oversees NPR’s culture show, It's Been a Minute with Brittany Luse and Code Switch, a show about race and identity with Gene Demby, Lori Lizarraga and B.A. Parker.
By recounting some of her life experiences in the journalism industry, Veralyn shares some crucial insights for gaining pertinent journalism experience, networking, mentorship, pitching shows at NPR, acquiring relevant "tools in your toolbox," and much more.
This interview has been edited for clarity. Read full interview below
Mariama: What steps did you take to achieve the success you have in the journalism industry?
Veralyn: I graduated in 2008, the first time the economy was down and everyone was getting laid off. That year, there was so much uncertainty in our economy. Before that, in college, I interned and participated in a show called Radio Rookies, which teaches young people how to tell their radio stories.
I came into the job market very clear that I wanted to be an audio journalist. At the time, there wasn't this big Podcast boom. A lot of people wanted to be on television or write for The New York Times or some paper. Going to public radio was not a desirable thing for most journalists at the time.
So, I guess the lesson is that even for someone who was very clear about what she wanted to do and had the connections, because I did intern all throughout WNYC, I still could not find a full-time job to save my life. So how did I get here? A lot of contracts, a lot of temps, and taking on adjacent roles.
Sometimes, my goal was to be in the building. So, I worked in the finance, HR, and listener services departments at WNYC—I think I worked in every single department. When something came up, I was there to do it, and people thought of me.
On the other hand, sometimes, I wanted to amplify community stories. So, I took a role at a community organizing group in central Brooklyn. My main goal was to focus on what I wanted rather than getting a full-time job with benefits. I focused on just doing the work and being in places that felt like I was going in the right direction.
Mariama: When did you get a full-time job?
Veralyn: I worked as a temp at WNYC in the finance department throughout college. When I graduated, they offered me a full-time job as an AP assistant. It was my only full-time job offer. But I didn't take it because I wanted a job in journalism. My next full-time job offer did not come until 2016.
Mariama: What is your advice on taking low-paying jobs that will give you good exposure? Is it a good thing for early career journalists?
Veralyn: It's hard because you have to be able to pay your bills and live. I was lucky because I lived with my parents until I was 26, so I didn't have to pay full rent. I helped here and there, but I didn't have to pay rent.
I was completely broke after paying all the upfront costs when I got my first apartment. I had just started a job and wasn't getting paid until the end of the month. I literally had to borrow $500 from a friend to make it to the end of the month. I just want to put that out there before I answer this question.
The reality of having to pay your bills is real. However, I always encourage young journalists and young media makers to focus on the why of what they're doing. Let that be precedent. You need to become an expert at what you do.
Now, if you're someone who's done this work before, has the relationships and connections, and part of why they're hiring you is for your experience and your expertise, and they're still not paying you what you want, then don't take that job.
If you're at the beginning of your career and part of what you're trying to do is get those reps and different tools that could be in your toolbox, then I would say always take that into account and say yes more than you say no.
Mariama: As an early career journalist, one of my biggest fears is that I will never make it in journalism. How long did it take you to feel accomplished?
Veralyn: My very first radio story won a Peabody. I feel like I've always had this meta experience of I know that the stories that I want to tell by industry standards are important, additive, and impactful.
But in the beginning, I found myself in situations where I felt like some editors weren't valuing things that I thought were important. I had these moments where, though my perspective, questions, and curiosity were valuable, I was not able to leverage them to get the opportunities I wanted.
So when did I feel accomplished? It's hard for me to say I feel completely accomplished because I want to always be in a position where I'm giving the most optimal support to my teams. That's why I always say go back to the tools in your toolbox.
When did I feel like my toolbox was full? When did I feel that I had a lot of tools in my toolbox to apply for a job like a senior producer or an executive producer? I don't know. I think it was just having mentors and people encouraging me. I think that played a big part.
Once I was in the senior producer role at the United States of Anxiety at WNYC, knowing I was able to do it was the moment. It wasn't like a day that I woke up, and I was like, 'Oh, I feel accomplished, so therefore, I'm going to go after this, I'm going to go after that.' It was more like, 'Oh, we're doing it, people like it, and it's helpful. People are congratulating me, and the team dynamic is working.'
Mariama: You mentioned mentorship. One of the issues many young journalists face is a lack of mentorship. Many seasoned journalists are busy and, unfortunately, can't offer mentorship. How do we overcome this as early career journalists? How do we go about getting a good mentorship and maintaining that mentorship?
Veralyn: This is related to the other question you asked about taking the low-paying job. Another thing that I've used to decide whether I take a job is, 'Is this a team that I want to work on? '
Mentorship is a two-way street. You're getting advice, but you're also giving advice and adding value. I got the best mentorship when I joined a team because I really wanted to work with an editor or a particular host that I found brilliant.
Careers are long. And I think people sometimes have a very narrow idea of wanting to get a full-time job right away. But think about the work and the impact you ultimately want to do.
Mariama: One thing I am struggling with right now is working a full-time non-journalism job that pays well, but knowing that what I want is a job in journalism. But I haven't been lucky yet to find one. Do you have any advice on how to handle this dilemma?
Veralyn: You have to decide what you want to do. I turned down that job in the finance department. But I had other things going on. I had a contract position. I was doing video blogs every month. I did radio workshops with the museum of African art, I had other things. So, even though I turned down the full-time job, I still had possibilities and prospects in the media.
Now, if you have absolutely no prospects and you need to pay your bills, I think it's a balance. I would never tell someone to turn down a job because it's not in the field they want. But if you have a way to pay your bills and get the career you want, I would always tell you to work towards the career you want.
Mariama: How do early career journalists pitch NPR?
Veralyn: First, don't think of it as NPR.
NPR has many programs, from shows that are primarily radio shows to shows that are primarily podcasts that go on the radio on the weekend. Learn the show that you want to pitch. Listen to it, and learn it. Every show has a pitch criteria. If you email the showrunner, they will tell you the pitching criteria.
Next, you need to build relationships. Find out who the executive producer is, who the showrunner is, who the supervising editor is, or who another editor on the show or one of the hosts, reach out to them, and build relationships. That's a good way to get your pitch seen, as opposed to sending it to a general mailbox.
Mariama: Let's say I'm pitching a show at NPR. What would you want included in the pitch?
Veralyn: I will use Code Switch as an example. One thing that we're looking for is what the different beats in the piece are. Are you actually taking us somewhere? What's your North Star question? Are you talking to people who can get us to that North Star?
What are the different beats? If your question can be answered with a quick answer, that won't sustain a whole episode. Make sure there are several beats, and you have people that can answer the question based on their expertise or experience.
Mariama: What if you've done a lot of research, but something is just not "clicking" in the story…
Veralyn: How do you know when to let go?
Mariama: Yeah.
Veralyn: As a journalist, you should never think of yourself as just asking questions for one story. I had interviewed my sister about having vitiligo. It was going to be a story for Death, Sex, and Money, but it didn't work out for a lot of different reasons.
Months later, we were on United States of Anxiety discussing doing a Black History Month series about Blackness within Blackness. I was able to use that interview that I did with my sister months before.
So, asking questions or trying to satisfy your curiosity is never a waste. It may not work for what you're working on at the moment, but it might work at some point.
Mariama: Some early career journalists believe that our field is very hard for young journalists to break into because they believe young people are gatekept out of it. What do you say to this?
Veralyn: I Have always really resisted that idea or let that be seen as a deterrent for me. what I would say is, be unapologetic about finding your people. if it's important for you to be among young journalists or young journalists of color, they are out there. Find them and make a monthly group.
It's like what you're doing right now. Start a newsletter that reaches people so that people have a place to come together regularly. If you're afraid that people are gatekeeping and that there's no way in, and that is what you believe, then that will be true.
Mariama: What organizations should all young journalists be aware of? What journalist organizations are out there that we can follow and join?
Veralyn: Join the affinity group of your identity. For me, it was NABJ. I went to NABJ, and I got an internship at Black Enterprise. For instance, I met someone who led to a contract position I got at Spotify.
The other thing I love about NABJ are the awards. One of my video blogs, All About Perspectives, was nominated for an NABJ award, and having a space where the work that I was doing could be upheld as award-winning was also very important to my development and confidence as a journalist.But more than anything, it was about the people that I met.
Join a community that you want to belong to outside of journalism. Join communities that help you become the expert in the way you want—again, go back to the tools of your toolbox and the expertise you want to gain.
You know how Issa Rae always talks about networking across? Sometimes, we want to network up, but you need to network with people who are also trying to make it happen for themselves at the same level as you are. They might hear about an opportunity and connect you with it. That happens all the time.
I also did a leadership program at Poynter. When you asked me about feeling accomplished, that experience will always stay with me. I'm going to be thinking about that for a while. I remember being at Poynter with all these accomplished women from various companies that I never would have imagined, I would be sitting in a cohort with at the same time. That did a lot to build my confidence.
I remember learning the term managing up at Poynter. I had never considered managing up as a skill, but I realized I've managed up my whole life. You know, the idea of putting yourself in a position where you want to get what you need from your manager. So, you make them think it's their idea or you set them up for their success, so you can get what you want. I've been doing that my whole career, but they gave me the language for it.
It's all about growing in a way that you want to grow. And then when you get there, you see who else is in the room with you. So, think about how you want to grow and join programs that will help you get there, and then stay in touch with the people in the room.